Hurts, Habits and Hang-ups

Friday, January 4, 2008 - Dave Roberts

I can’t tell you how important I think this next series is. “Hurts, Habits and Hang-ups” are topics we desperately need to talk about as a church. It is so important that we own our own pain and failure. It is important that people have a community where it is safe to share real life. I said last week that we are all a mess and I think that is true, but it is a testimony to God’s grace that He does not leave us in our mess. He brings us together under His grace to support real change in the lives of others. That’s why the Bible says we are to bear one another’s burdens and rejoice with those that rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. We need a community where it is safe to hurt and to heal. Another of my prejudices about this topic is that real change is both practical and theological. Each weekend over the next few weeks we will explore the theological issues. Midweek we will will tackle the practical issues with “next steps.” We’ve invited two outstanding therapists to answer your questions and give their insights into our “Hurts, Habits and Hang-ups.” I am praying that these weeks bring healing to your heart and life and give hope to our community. I can’t wait to worship with you this weekend. I'd love to hear your thoughts, questions and stories about this topic by posting comment(s) to this blog.

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37 comments (Add your own)

1. Hurt, Habitual and Really Hung Up wrote:: I find myself at a crossroads (some would call it a mid-life crisis, but it's more a search for the real me and not the me that is visible to others). What is it I really want? Why do I keep asking that question and not the one I really need to ask: What does God want for/from me? So many things are happening in my life and 2008 is the year I set things right with God and those around me. I just need to learn how to not try to direct my life and let God in. I am so looking forward to this series. For the first time I plan on attending on Wednesday evening. Sunday services have moved me so much and made a wonderful difference in how I view so many things. It's time to take the next step -- learn more, listen more,let go of the hurts, hang ups and habits, and discover what God's plans are for me. Today's music was so inspiring - so often I forget that God really does love me even though he sees me just as I am.

Much love to all - so many people from Montrose Church have touched my life. My daughter, above all, is my true inspiration with her fresh love for the Lord and faith in his love.
January 6, 2008 @ 9:55 PM
2. wrote:: Oh wow! I have basically the same question as the previous person. It's so confusing & painful to feel this way. Remember the TV show "What's My Line"? I'd appreciate it if the real me would please stand up, because I'm having a lot of trouble recognizing me.
Is this mid-life crisis? How do I get through this without hurting people I love?
January 7, 2008 @ 1:30 AM
3. Debbie Unruh wrote:: I want to comment to the first two people who commented with a "thank you!.,," Thanks for letting us as a church in on your process, your confusion, your questions. I so appreciate your willingness to share your pain and to ask the tough questions, and in the midst of those questions and confusion, to look at the "Who." The cool thing about the Jesus that I have discovered these past few years (as I have opened myself up to His awesome love and healing)is that He is WITH US in our struggle and journey of trying to figure it all out. He is with me in the painful process, even when I am so full of fear and I don't know how or if I can go on...He holds me tight in the midst of the turbulent journey.

The "real you" is starting to stand up, even if it is just a slight move of the foot, a tiny muscle moving in the right direction. We, at Montrose Church are here for you as you slowly make the stand towards healing and wholeness. We are all in this together.
January 7, 2008 @ 5:55 PM
4. my hurts, habits, hangups brief testimony... wrote:: i just want to encourage everyone to join this series to help in this adventure called life with all its hurts, habits and hangups.
i myself, by all means, have not arrived to where i can say i am out of the woods yet but i wanted to briefly share that my testimony of the 3 h's lasted 7yrs. and as i admit to the time frame of the last 7yrs of perpetual h.h.h's, i wish i hadn't wasted so much time. part of it was health, but the other part was the "stuff" i was carrying around. my biggests hurts ran deep, my habits were running counter God's will and my hangups ran like a roaring river under the surface. hindsight leaves me to believe that i was going through refining fire. OUCH! you bet it hurt alot, but i am a living testamony that when you perservere (sorry about spelling), God will bring you through the fiery furnace and you will come out as gold.
Do your best to get answers so that you can one day soon help advance His kingdom.
God loves us too much to leave us the way we are.
January 7, 2008 @ 7:30 PM
5. Catherine Beyerle wrote:: Like the postings before me, I too am amazed at the impact that the last sermon had on me. As usual, Dave seemed to be speaking directly to me. His words were issued, and I felt the urgent call to grow. Yet, I now realize that I don't know what needs changing, that God knows me best, and that He will shape me according to His will. It's kind of a relief. I've spent too many hours trying to figure things out for myself. In some ways I've been successful, but I can only imagine how silly I must seem to God! I'm learning to listen for His words, and to slowly let go of some of my worry!
His will be done.
January 7, 2008 @ 9:12 PM
6. Anglais wrote:: Thinking back on the first two sermons of this new year, one thing that stood out to me was when Dave quoted the Lord's prayer and the words "The will be done." I have "little areas" in my life where I think "my will be done" because I erroneously that "my will" is "safest" and "easier". Then I think of the quote I've heard that "If He is not Lord of all in your life, He is not Lord at all". I can understand the Israelites being afraid to cross the Jordan river ... even though they had just walked through a parted Red Sea. I know I would have been scared by those big bad enemies across the river. I seem to have stubbornly decided that "certain areas" are just too hard to trust God with. After thinking this way for YEARS I ponder if I will ever change my way of thinking? I must want to change on some level or I would not be writing here I guess. Somehow I think this is my biggest "hangup" and if that were made right, others things would slowly fall in to place. I definetly have some habits I'd like to break... breaking habits is not an easy thing to do. But then I ponder how can I rely on God's power to break any habits if I am not willing to "surrender all"?
January 7, 2008 @ 11:39 PM
7. Anglais wrote:: There is a typo above, from the Lord's prayer it should have read "Thy (not "the")will be done".
January 7, 2008 @ 11:42 PM
8. Sharie Robbins wrote:: Thanks to everyone for their honest comments. I have been praying diligently for years that God would change certain things about me. Being the control freak that I am, I usually tell Him what I think those things are and how He might go about the process of changing them in me. What I was deeply touched by in the message on "healing" was that maybe the reason God has not changed those things in me yet is because he "wired" me this way for a reason. That is not to say that I do not have things that need to be changed and ways that I need to grow in Him; but perhaps I need to stop focusing on what I think needs to change and instead be open to the power of the Holy Spirit to do that for me. Maybe, just maybe, I need to stop looking for what is wrong with my life so I can feel healed and whole and start embracing what is right instead and be thankful. Maybe that is where the true healing for my heart will be found.
January 8, 2008 @ 9:58 PM
9. justplainwayne wrote:: Listening to Dave this past weekend, and then to Mark, Steve and Debbie along with Dave on Wednesday was very impactful.

When I listen I am reminded of a small book I read and taught from by John Tent and Gary Smalley called "The Blessing". (Have you read it? You should!)

I think the reason why I recall this book is because I want to change the perspective of my life away from needing to be healed to being a healer.
From wanting to "be Blessed", to being one who is a blessing.

This all starts with God using me in a way that makes me transparent, allows me to share my struggles and successes, and give all the credit to Him in me. It is God's good therapy at work in me!

Dave's comment last night about the community of faith that can break cycles of sin touched me deeply. It is so true that only with the support and unconditional love of a God loving community will change take place.
January 10, 2008 @ 12:22 PM
10. wrote:: It seems like the older I get the more sensitive I become. People truly have the power to wound. Recently, I had my heart broken by individuals I thought were real friends. I'm struggling with feelings of rejection, and I question how I could have misjudged these relationships. I've heard it does as much damage in the world to take offense, as it does when giving offense. I can't seem to turn off the hurt. It's hard to make connections, even in a place as friendly as Montrose Church.
January 10, 2008 @ 10:56 PM
11. wrote:: I appreciated the last comment. It is so hard to find connection because we only see each other really at church. There is no small group community unless you are in a ministry, but then not all ministry has small group. As Mark shared, we only see the outside. We don't seem to see the insides of people unless you are already connected. Like a worldly family, the church family can be as difficult to enter into. What is the saying...Laugh and the world laughs with you...cry and you cry alone. Sad to say that even in the church you are often times alone. Steve talked about bonding, and his statement rings true in churches also. He said that its hard to understand the love of God if you have never really bonded with someone. I struggle with understanding the love of God because of rejection and a sense of a lack response in Christian relationships. At times it is easier to connect with people in the world because we know what we are dealing with and there are no expectations and less likelihood of being offended. MNC is a very friendly church on weekends.
January 12, 2008 @ 10:11 AM
12. wrote:: I agree about it being hard to make connections. I however am not one who makes connections easily, at MNC or anywhere else, although I do think MNC is a church where people are very friendly. I find the statement that "its hard to understand the love of God if you have never really bonded with someone" to be a bit scary actually. (Not sure "scary" is the right word.) I have to believe that it is still possible to understand the love of God w/o bonding with another human being (even if it's hard) because not everyone is going to be able to be in a relationship with another person where they can bond in such a way that they feel accepted for themseleves--just as they are. I have heard it said that "to gain a friend one needs to be a friend" (or some quote similar to that). I guess I should try and remember that. I agree with the poster above who said, "at times it is easier to connect with people in the world because we know what we are dealing with and there are no expectations and less likelihood of being offended."
January 12, 2008 @ 11:38 PM
13. Dave Roberts wrote:: I appreciate all of you who have written and shared your thoughts. I know it is risky, but it is valuable to all of us who get to see inside your life.

This past weekend as we dealt with some of the ways to let go of brokenness, I was once again filled with that overwhelming sense of God's hope. There is a "who" in our healing and I am praying that on this journey we are all sensing His presence and encouragement.

I think the challenge of the series is to stay focused on "what's next for me?" If I give myself much room to rationalize my pain or place blame I may be unwilling to let go of my hurt. God has a next step for every person who seeking to heal. It is hardly ever the last step in our healing, but He never leaves us stuck because of the behaviors of others. I am trying to let God examine every corner of my life and help me see what steps He is asking me to take. I pray this journey will be intensely personal and healing for all of you! God Bless

Pastor Dave
January 15, 2008 @ 6:08 PM
14. Cyndi Roberts wrote:: It takes a lot of courage to speak openly about hurt and rejection, and I thank those of you who have been so open. I think that there are others like me who wish that we knew who you were. This blog can just help us to get the conversation going and to know that these feelings exist - but I would like for us as a church to be able to reach out to you. You've taken the step of honesty - can you help us as a community to take the next step toward you? You are not alone - we ALL fear rejection...but I really believe that the purpose of this series is to equip us to take the next step(s)...however difficult they might be. I'm going to pray that God will help you to do just that...and that he'll help me too!
January 18, 2008 @ 12:59 PM
15. wrote:: This series is extremely powerful, and has touched me deeply. I was profoundly moved by Yolanda's willingness to share her tragedy. Her courage, strength and dignity were amazing to behold. I wonder at the resilience of the human spirit in the face of so much evil. It's only by the grace of God that so many of us survive. I start to get hung up in asking "why." How can we fortify ourselves against the evil intentions of others? At what point do we go from a mental illness to labeling acts violence evil?
January 18, 2008 @ 9:32 PM
16. Julie Mahoney wrote:: I am amazed at this program of Hurts, Habits, etc. It's given me a chance to reflect on my own life and what's really going on inside. I missed the first Wednesday, but attended this week and now I'm blocking out my calendar so nothing stands in the way of this fantastic, eye-opening, heart-wrenching series. My journey is just begining with God and the Montrose Church...I'm hooked!
January 18, 2008 @ 11:16 PM
17. wrote:: This series has hit me head on. I know we can't stay here too long, we must move on, in church and in life. Just wanted to let you know how impactful this is. Thank you for following Christ's example and being willing to address these issues with love, compassion and forgiveness. It's scary to take the necessary steps in my life so I'll be praying for great courage. All I can say is thank you!
January 21, 2008 @ 12:57 PM
18. Helen Licu wrote:: what a great series....of course my hurt is chronic pain. I try to hard to accept God's will...I've heard the saying "pain is God's way of letting us know we are still alive"..boy am I alive...my chruch family has been wonderful...I am a very honest, up front person, and am myself..too tired to act happy. Daily I turn over my pain the our Lord and I make it...Thank you Dave for your great teaching...I know in my heart they are many hurting hearts....God Bless, and thank you
January 23, 2008 @ 7:54 PM
19. Byron wrote:: Well, after having my seizure on Saturday night, I am resting and working as much as I can for now. Once again God has used this time to show me that He is strong enough for me, and that I will need to change some bad habits that I have developed over the years. One in particular is my obsession for working until I drop. God is asking me to slow it down a little and take one day at a time listening to my mind and body when it is asking me to take a breath. Please pray for me as I try to respond to what God is saying to me. His grace and mercy is sufficiant for us. Thank you.
January 23, 2008 @ 9:32 PM
20. Cathy Beyerle wrote:: The panel was very profound tonight. It seems that we are all wounded. Whether we come from relatively safe and secure homes or not, human beings can’t go through life unscathed. Everywhere I turn I see people trying to make up for the psychological and emotional damage experienced from childhood, bad marriages, addictions, and dysfunctional families. I personally haven’t spoken to my father in over a year. I finally had enough and had to set boundaries, to ensure my sanity. It’s not the way I want it to be, and I’ve worked hard to find peace. I struggle with trusting, and find my faith constantly being tested. I couldn’t trust my earthly father, how about my heavenly one? I think I know the answer. I know God’s love. I'm still neurotic, just happier!
January 23, 2008 @ 11:59 PM
21. Lou wrote:: I was moved by this morning's sermon, in a sad kind of a way. I am fully aware that we are all sinners, but I'm afraid I can't hear the phrase "we are all a mess" without recoiling to certain degree. By God's grace we are forgiven sinners, and it is my opinion, so long as we continue to lean on "being a mess" we cannot move forward in God's love. God cleans out our messy selves and gives us a cleanliness that only his grace can provide.
When Dave spoke of husbands loving their wives in the way the Christ loved the church, I had to reflect on conversations that we have had in our home over the years. Both my wife and our daughter have openly stated to me and others that there was never any doubt in their minds that I would step in front of speeding train for either of them. That didn't come by my telling them so; it came by years of observation of what I did for them and how I treated them day by day. When Dave said something very similar to, 'But my wife is mean to me' and raised his hand, I believe that if any man had said "Amen" or had raised his hand, I would have walked out. Paul wrote, "Behold all things are new." I know it is sometimes difficult to think about the positive, to be Christ-like, especially when we are concerned about our own feelings and continue to dwell on how big of a mess we each are. And it is a challenge to be like Christ, to have his mindset. I firmly believe, that we need to be, as Dave has called it, "Jesus with skin" to each other, especially to our wives and families.
January 27, 2008 @ 2:13 PM
22. Eric McClenahan wrote:: I was so honored to be able to lead worship this weekend. After reading Dave's sermon a couple weeks ago, I knew it was going to be a powerful week, and it was an honor to be able to pick out the songs and sing them with you all this week!

I absolutely loved this series. I love being at a church that is real and authentic and isnt afraid to say that we're all "a mess." Lou, I think thats great that you are in a place where you feel you dont need to hear those words. I hope someday my wife and kids feel the same way about me. But honestly, I cant tell you how comforting those words have been to me this past month. While my daily goal is to be positive and Christ-like, I find great comfort in knowing that there are other people who flat out fail at this like I do.

I dont really feel like "being a mess" is a downer, but rather a starting place. While God does make all things new, its a constant process. There are times that I need to look and my mess of a life and find the things that I need to fix or let go of so that God can pour into me and I can grow. Matthew 9:17 talks about the old and new wineskins. I cant let go of my old wineskin and let God pour into my new one unless I can first admit that my old one is old. Thats what "being a mess" really means to me.

Dave, thank you so much for your honesty and authenticity. For anyone who doesnt know Dave personally, the way he is on stage is the same way he is in everyday life. The integrity, the passion, the genuine love for God and the people of Montrose Church is real, and I couldn't imagine working anywhere else.

Thank you all so much for letting be play a small part in your journey!

-eric
January 27, 2008 @ 11:53 PM
23. wrote:: i'd have to agree with lou.

after hearing pastor dave's comments for the past few weeks that "we are all a mess", i believe this "series" approach to healing from "being a mess" simply puts a big band-aid on our 3 H's.

i work in a hospital setting. i don't usually see a doctor approach a patient by giving him the cure "before" a terminal genetic diagnosis. if my doctor did that, i would think he was a little wacky and find an new m.d.

but if he were to first assess my symptoms,do some tests, then conclude to a diagnosis, i would then want to hear what "cure" is available to me.

the "Gospel" messege addresses our inherited "sin" disease first. against the 10 commandments it shows the state of our hearts. our disease of lying, stealing, blaspheming G-d's name, not honoring our parents.
Jesus said, if we look with lust, we have committed adultery already in our hearts. hating anyone is like murder.
what about the first commandment, thou shalt not have any other gods before me...do we love G_d first with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength?
second commandment-do not make unto thee any graven image. do we make a god to suit ourselves? is G_d only a G_d of love while we dismiss His wrath. the Bible tells us that G_d is angry at sin.
He has literally sentenced us to death because of it. "the soul that sins, it shall die."

but, i discovered the "cure" 25yrs ago and it is "Good News" and by the grace of G_d, G_d provided something incredible and wonderful for us. two thousand years ago He came down in the form of a man--Jesus
Christ, born of a virgin, suffered, died and rose again according to the Scriptures. Jesus came into the court room to pay our fine,in His life's blood, for the law (10 Commandments) that we broke.So if we "repent"-turn from our sin toward G_d and implicitly "trust" in Jesus Christ we can be "born again" and receive the gift of everlasting (eternal) life.
Now, if you ask me...that's Good News!

come on church. WAKE UP!
let's stop sweeping sin under the rug and start "calling the kettle black".
i'm tired of seeing people "stuck" in their sins. we are wasting too much time tring to heal ourselves the world's way while people outside of church walls are dying without Christ.
let's confess our detailed sins, trust Christ and He promised to wash away our SIN with all its guilt, shame, anger, confusion, pain, even our "HURTS, HABITS AND HANGUPS".
January 28, 2008 @ 12:13 AM
24. Pastor Dave wrote:: Thanks for those insights. I assure you that the staff will continue to pray, study, seek, distill, and prepare with a deep sense of fear and trembling as we lead Montrose Church. It is always our goal to see God's will done in this place as it is in heaven and seeking to please God is our only goal and purpose.

I am thankful that we have a community where we value the real conversations about how to live out God's call. I am so proud of all of you and they way you have walked these weeks through some difficult issues. You have displayed the maturity of sincere followers seeking God's best. The courage it has taken for people to share their stories and their struggles has challenged me and inspired me!

It is my prayer that this last week of blogging together will continue to represent that kind of honest vulnerability. I hope you came away from the weekend challenged, but refreshed. I can't stop singing, "On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand!" Thanks for being the most loving place on earth...

God Bless
Pastor Dave
January 28, 2008 @ 10:08 AM
25. Byron wrote:: Afte reading the last 4 blogs, I will simply say "Amen" and may God's grace forever cover us and hold us in His tight grip!! Thank you all for sharing your hearts and for being living testimonies of how God speaks so powerfully to where each of us are individually! I am thankful everyday for the body of Christ. Let's keep pursuing Him with great passion for His will and purpose for our lives personally and as a church. "On Christ the Solid Rock" we will forever stand on!
January 28, 2008 @ 3:14 PM
26. Cathy Beyerle wrote:: Pastor Dave is hitting a nerve, yet I believe these sermons on Hurts, Habits, and Hang-Ups to be critical for the healing of the church, and its members. We must grow as human beings, and it takes pain, introspection, reflection, personal responsibility, and most critically God's grace. These sermons have been so profound, yet beautifully nuanced. We are looking at the human condition, and trying to make sense of it, and through it all discover God’s will. Thank God for Pastor Dave’s willingness to tackle the hard stuff, and do it with such love, and compassion!
January 28, 2008 @ 11:37 PM
27. wrote:: I'm looking forward to hearing from the panel tonight. They have been really helpful.

I'm wondering, what is it that makes us cling to and obsess our hurts, especially from those that we love? Is there a spiritual or medical process that works well to move on?
January 30, 2008 @ 11:29 AM
28. wrote:: I'm wondering about the blog who couldn't write out the name of God. Because of our position with God because of His Son, we can come before God and are called His children. We can call Him Abba, Daddy. Why wouldn't we be able to write out his name?
January 30, 2008 @ 1:04 PM
29. wrote:: hi, i think that's my post your referring to.

sorry, i didn't mean to appear "legalistic".

of course i can write out and even speak His Holy name--God. But, i guess after years of self-taught reading of Messianic influence, i noticed that the jews could not speak His name simply because it is so revered in the jewish culture. so, i sort of adopted that into my life.

i'm sorry about that, i didn't mean to trip anybody up.

in His Holy Name--my God, my Yahweh, my Father-Abba, my King, my Creator, my Peace etc...
a sister-in-Christ
January 30, 2008 @ 1:37 PM
30. wayne wrote:: This simple essay is on mine and Letty's kitchen cabinet. We often look and read it, it seems I have been reading it more during this series.
"Letting Go"
To let go does not mean to stop caring. It means I can not do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off. It is the realization that I cannot control another.
To let go is to admit powerlessness, which means the ourcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try to change or blame another. I can only change myself.
To let go is not to judge but to allow another to be a heman being.
To let go is not to be in the middle, arranging outcomes, but to let others arrange their own outcomes.
To let go is not to be protective. It os to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny, but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold, or argue but to search out my own shortcomings and to correct them.
To let go is not to adjust everyting to my desires, but to take each day as it comes and to cherish the momnet
To let go is not to regulate anyone, but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To let go in not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the future.
To let go is to fear less and love more.
It is not known who authored this piece but it certainly could have been God's hand on someones heart.
wayne
January 31, 2008 @ 11:29 AM
31. Cathy Beyerle wrote:: Thanks Wayne for the "Letting Go" essay. Nice.

I am very appreciative to all the courageous people who have shared their life experiences with us. You are all an inspiration. This is the first time I've heard Cyndi Roberts speak, and it was very cathartic. Thank you Cyndi for being so open and speaking from the heart.
January 31, 2008 @ 10:31 PM
32. Cyndi Roberts wrote:: Jeannie Knopf (jklmd5@yahoo.com) sent us a link to a HomeWord devotional from 1/21. It really captures the spirit of this series and Dave and I just wanted to share it with all of you as the series closes.

HomeWord for 01/21/08
Standing at the Window, Wondering - by Jim Burns

I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.
— Isaiah 43:25

My friend Steve Arterburn told a wonderful story that has a great moral to it...

There was a little boy and his sister visiting his grandparents on their farm. Johnny was given a slingshot to play with out in the woods. He practiced in the woods; but he could never hit the target. Getting a little discouraged, he headed back for dinner. As he was walking back he saw Grandma's pet duck. Just out of impulse, he let the slingshot fly, hit the duck square in the head and killed it. He was shocked and grieved! In a panic, he hid the dead duck in the wood pile; only to see his sister watching! Sally had seen it all, but she said nothing.

After lunch the next day Grandma said, "Sally, let's wash the dishes" But Sally said, "Grandma, Johnny told me he wanted to help in the kitchen." Then she whispered to him, "Remember the duck?" So Johnny did the dishes.

Later that day, Grandpa asked if the children wanted to go fishing and Grandma said, "I'm sorry but I need Sally to help make supper." Sally just smiled and said, "Well that's all right because Johnny told me he wanted to help" She whispered again, "Remember the duck?"

So Sally went fishing and Johnny stayed to help. After several days of Johnny doing both his chores and Sally's; he finally couldn't stand it any longer. He came to Grandma and confessed that he had killed the duck. Grandma knelt down, gave him a hug and said, "Sweetheart, I know. You see, I was standing at the window and I saw the whole thing, but because I love you, I forgave you. I was just wondering how long you would let Sally make a slave of you."

And so it is with us. Whatever is in your past, whatever you have done...And the devil keeps throwing it up in your face (lying, cheating, debt, fear, bad habits, hatred, anger, bitterness, etc.) ...whatever it is...You need to know that God was standing at the window and He saw the whole thing. He has seen your whole life. He wants you to know that He loves you and that you are forgiven. He's just wondering how long you will let the devil make a slave of you.

Today, as a follower of Christ, don’t allow the devil to keep you in slavery. Instead, celebrate the freedom found in Christ: freedom from our past sins, and freedom to choose not to repeat them. Put on the full armor of God so that you can stand against the devil’s schemes.

Thanks, Jeannie - for sharing this with us!

Link: http://signup.homeword.com/hostedemail/email.htm?h=2878e5bc008bf14cf91c5b1ef52fbbe6 CID=1178470880 ch=032C804F474E521DCE9F283D1C41FD92
February 2, 2008 @ 11:56 AM
33. wrote:: i fully understand this somewhat nice story. but cyndi, i have to disagree about who god is in the story by jim burns vs. the God of the Bible. the god of the story is an incomplete god.

let me explain. in the story it is stated...

"Sweetheart, I know. You see, I was standing at the window and I saw the whole thing, but because I love you, I forgave you. I was just wondering how long you would let Sally make a slave of you."

this portion of the story gives the impression that we can just sin (lie, steal, blasphem His name, covet, hate, lust, fornicate, drunkenness...etc) hide it in a "wood pile". then, grandma (who is suppose to represent God) is saying, "i forgave you. i was just wondering how long you would let sally make a slave of you."

i just don't think this is the correct biblical analogy of the God of the Bible.

those in leadership and myself included, should be held accountable to how we represent the God of the Scriptures.

let me point to a passage of many passages that debunks what the story says about forgiveness of sins.

in Matthew 4, Jesus is "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil." the first portion of that chapter tells us that Jesus was tempted by the devil vs 1-11. yet soon after in vs 12-17, especially vs 17, He preaches..."Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

what i'm getting at is this, without "repentance" there is no forgiveness. we must balance the God who loves with the God that hates sin. unless we understand the severity of braking God's Law we are fooling ourselves in thinking that God just forgives to forgive. that's NOT Biblical.

i'm not trying to give you a hard time here but i am very concerned about the people who come to church that hear things that are putting a "band-aid" on their sins and walking away doing what they have always been doing.

does montrose church want to continue putting on a worldly "band-aid" on sin and creating more "false converts" or do we explain to them (in love) that God is angry with sin also.

i know from experience,(one of my own children) who "goes" to church, likes the sermon but continues to go out & gets drunk with his buddies. he lies, a few months ago, was arrested for stealing/coveting, dishonors us,his parents. does he know Jesus, yes, but so what, even the devil "knows who Jesus is".

i want to first apologize for remaining anonymous. i know from experience,when i go against the "modern" thinking of the world, my family and i might pay the consequences of my speaking out.

yet hear my heart, i want to see true "born again" converts amoung the church. my heart aches knowing the fate of the people who don't repent and "trust" in Jesus Christ.

in conclusion, i know we can't "make" the people turn to Christ, but it's the gospel message presented Bibically that will "convict" them.

conversion is up to God and we are responcible to convey His message.
February 3, 2008 @ 2:24 PM
34. Cyndi Roberts wrote:: I'm really sorry that you feel you have to be anonymous on this blog. I'm also grateful that you have found a place to voice your concerns. And I apologize to anyone on this blog who may feel that the story was conveyed as the gospel of the Bible. The story - was just that - a story. I completely concur with the anonymous person that we all must seek forgiveness. I think if you re-read the story carefully you will find that the grandma only speaks of her forgiveness after the boy confesses to her. Needless to say, the danger with "parables" is that they are interpreted very tightly and if that story caused God's message to us to be misconveyed or misinterpreted, I ask forgiveness for that! I have to say however, that I still like the lesson that it conveys that even after we have sought forgiveness and have walked into a trusting relationship with God, many of us - namely myself - still live in bondage to guilt that God doesn't intend for us to carry. It was that kind of bondage to unnecessary guilt for things that have been forgiven out of sincere repentance that I was referring to...not some kind of "blanket" forgiveness while we continue willfully in the wrong behavior. The Word that I read says clearly that we are to love...and that God is drawing all men to him. I believe that "conviction" comes from the Holy Spirit - not from me or how I present things. I will always get it wrong - just like in this case, perhaps. However - thank God that he can use me anyway! At some point, I hope that you don't feel that you need to remain anonymous. I think that when we can converse honestly and sincerely understand what each other means - there is much more room for a meaningful dialogue. Thank you for your honesty.
February 3, 2008 @ 4:03 PM
35. wrote:: hi, anonymous person here again.

story says...
...he finally couldn't stand it any longer. He came to Grandma and confessed that he had killed the duck. Grandma knelt down, gave him a hug and said, "Sweetheart, I know. You see, I was standing at the window and I saw the whole thing, but because I love you, I forgave you.

i sooooooooooo apologize for that. here was the confession and the forgiveness right in front of my "blind" eyes. i am clearly in the wrong here.

cyndi said...
It was that kind of bondage to unnecessary guilt for things that have been forgiven out of sincere repentance that I was referring to...not some kind of "blanket" forgiveness while we continue willfully in the wrong behavior.

yes, yes, yes, i agree. i am not immune to the wiles of the enemy but, i'm getting stronger and much more aware of satan's lies. the daily reading of the Scriptures helps me to recognize the voice that i hear is not always my Master's voice.

i believe so many people (especially our youth/young adults) are "believing" in a jesus, but as i said before, using my own child as an example, many go back out on monday morning back to their old ways. the jesus they believe in is a touchy/feely jesus. some of the youth i know that have been raised in the church can not articulate the "Gospel" message. they keep telling me that they asked Jesus into their heart. where in Scripture does it say that?

cnydi said...
The Word that I read says clearly that we are to love...and that God is drawing all men to him. I believe that "conviction" comes from the Holy Spirit - not from me or how I present things. I will always get it wrong - just like in this case, perhaps. However - thank God that he can use me anyway!

yes, yes, yes to the first part. we have nothing to do with convicting. that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

in reference to the second portion...it is extremely important how you, i and the rest of us Christ followers present ourselves.
1 Pet 1:16 declares, "Because it is written. Be holy, for I am holy." yes, the Scriptures states holy not perfect. our walk has to been entirely different from the world. i see too many "in" the church walk like the world walks. in addition, God doesn't want us in bondage as He stated in
Exodus 20: 2, "I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of BONDAGE."

cyndi, thanks for letting me express my heart. i so desire that all who come into the church will experience a "true conversion and walk in the liberty we have because of Christ.
February 3, 2008 @ 10:08 PM
36. Cyndi Roberts wrote:: Just adding a few more somewhat random thoughts and even a few words of encouragement to anyone who is experiencing the pain of watching someone you love make wrong choices.

It's always been my prayer that as kids (and adults) struggle with the real stuff...the hard stuff...that the church would be a place where they can be in process. Even for those who say, "I want to believe, wait - I don't want to believe - but I want to want to. And I'm hanging out here because I WANT to want to." I believe that makes God smile. I hope that phrase makes sense in writing. :-) I think of it as seeds that are being planted. And we can never know exactly how and when those seeds will impact someone.

When it comes down to the people that I love and am closest too, it's really hard to watch them be "in process." I somehow wish that I could put my experiences into their head and they could jump straight to the conclusion(s) that I have instead of having to go through a process. I have to remember those who experienced the pain of having to watch me be in process, too!

But a friend of mine said something to me earlier this year that has really stuck with me: "Cyndi, you can't be [so-and-so's] Holy Spirit." Wow, that was so freeing to me. That's just what I had been trying to do. I felt that it was my responsibility. The idea of "letting go" as they say - seemed so counter-intuitive to what I thought God wanted me to do and be. When I finally began to practice that - and I mean practice, because it's still tough for me - God really started to show me all the other things that He was doing in the situation. Things that I never could have seen when I felt that "I" was supposed to be "doing something." It was a very humbling and amazing experience.

I say all of that to say - that's let's all join anonymous person - and each other - to pray for all of those who are searching - I'm praying you and your family and I hope that you'll pray for me and my family, too!

Last thought: 2 Corinthians 12:9 - "But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore I will